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Posts Tagged ‘ disfellowshipping ’

Galatians Chapter 6: Restoring a Brother, Christian Walk

Jan 11th, 2010 | By admin | Category: Galatians, Verse by Verse --Studies led by Br. Frank Shallieu (Click on Book name)

Verse 2 is related to verse 1. In the spirit of meekness, we are to be sympathetic with the trials and temptations of others. If we have that consideration, we can be helpful to the brethren. If others sense this spirit in us, they will be more apt to rightly receive and benefit from the help, correction, and advice we give them. As Paul said in Galatians 5:14, “All the law [toward others] is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” This law about loving our neighbor applies both in and out of the Church.

Tags: circumcised, cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, disfellowshipping, Household of faith, law of Christ, new creature, overtaken in a fault, reap corruption, reap life everlasting, second death, soweth to his flesh, suffer persecution for the cross of Christ Posted in Galatians, Verse by Verse --Studies led by Br. Frank Shallieu (Click on Book name) | No Comments »

1 Corinthians Chapter 16: Jerusalem Brethren in Need, Timothy, Apollos

Jan 4th, 2010 | By admin | Category: 1 & 2 Corinthians, Verse by Verse --Studies led by Br. Frank Shallieu (Click on Book name)

Paul had tried to persuade Apollos to go back to Corinth, but it was not convenient for him to return until later. The account does not state what the hindrance was with Apollos. Earlier in this epistle, Paul wrote that he had planted and Apollos had watered (1 Cor. 3:6). Paul thought highly of Apollos, even though they differed doctrinally for a while. Apollos had brought many to Christ, he was zealous and courageous, and he was willing to be instructed. Even prior to his enlightenment on the subject of baptism, he was commended as being full of faith in the Spirit and mighty in the Scriptures (Acts 18:24,25). Paul properly weighed matters.

Tags: Anathema, and Achaicus, and Thessalonica, Apollos, ask for donations, churches of Galatia, collection for the saints, disfellowshipping, ecclesia, Ephesus until Pentecost, firstfruits of Achaia, Fortunatus, Fortunatus and Achaicus, holy kiss, house of Stephanas, Macedonia, Maranatha, parousia, Philippi, Priscilla and Aquila, quit you like men, school of Tyrannus, second death, stand fast in the faith, Stephanas Posted in 1 & 2 Corinthians, Verse by Verse --Studies led by Br. Frank Shallieu (Click on Book name) | No Comments »

Review of John’s Three Epistles

Dec 10th, 2009 | By admin | Category: 1st & 2nd & 3rd John, Verse by Verse --Studies led by Br. Frank Shallieu (Click on Book name)

John did not go into the fine details that Paul did but just enunciated right and wrong principles. Before quoting from John’s epistles, we should read all three to make sure we get the right thought.

Tags: Asian and Grecian philosophies, born of God, Catholicism, disfellowshipping, Gnostics, keep his commandments, love of God, love the brethren, new creature, Nicolaitan spirit, second death, Word of God Posted in 1st & 2nd & 3rd John, Verse by Verse --Studies led by Br. Frank Shallieu (Click on Book name) | No Comments »

Ephesians Chapter 5: Walking as Children of the Light, Relationships

Dec 6th, 2009 | By admin | Category: Ephesians, Verse by Verse --Studies led by Br. Frank Shallieu (Click on Book name)

Paul told the Ephesians to walk in love as God’s dear children. Again he warned against fornication, uncleanness, and covetousness. He said, “You are light in the Lord, so walk as children of light.” Ephesus was known as the “light of the world,” but that light was Diana. People came to her for happiness, instruction, and a good time, but the Christian was to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness and, instead, was to reprove them. The Christian was not just to take a negative, quiet stance but was to actively reprove at times.
Paul admonished the Ephesians to awake from sleep, and in worldly associations, they were not to become drunk with wine. Christians are to be circumspect and shun former practices.
Instead of wine, they are to be filled with the Spirit of God, that is, with instructions from the Scriptures. In both private and public life, the Christian is to be submissive, reasonable, and pliable—where principle is not involved.

Tags: all uncleanness, bad language (cursing), children of disobedience, children of light, covetous man, days are evil, derogatory innuendos, disfellowshipping, filled with the Spirit, foolish talking, fornication, fruit of the Spirit, glorious church, head of the church, homosexuality, idolater, jesting, lewd comments, offering and a sacrifice to God, or covetousness, or wrinkle, psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, Redeeming the time, saviour of the body, second death, sorcerers, spot, sweetsmelling savour, unclean person, unfruitful works of darkness, vain words, walk circumspectly, whoremonger, Wrath of God Posted in Ephesians, Verse by Verse --Studies led by Br. Frank Shallieu (Click on Book name) | No Comments »

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With the court’s acceptance in June of a third indictment in the case, known as the “Malatya Massacre” in the Turkish media, allegations against primarily military officials have finally been made public.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"admin\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:40:\"http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/\";a:1:{s:7:\"encoded\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:10532:\"<h2>Summary</h2>\n \n<div id=\"attachment_6374\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"width: 310px\"><a href=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/malayta-victims.jpg\"><img class=\"size-medium wp-image-6374\" title=\"Christian victims of the 2007 Malatya massacre, from left, Necati Aydın, Uğur Yüksel, and Tilmann Ekkehart Geske.\" src=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/malayta-victims-300x156.jpg\" alt=\"Christian victims of the 2007 Malatya massacre, from left, Necati Aydın, Uğur Yüksel, and Tilmann Ekkehart Geske.\" width=\"300\" height=\"156\" /></a>Christian victims of the 2007 Malatya massacre, from left, Necati Aydın, Uğur Yüksel, and Tilmann Ekkehart Geske.</div>\nISTANBUL, Sept. 19 (Open Doors News) — Nineteen suspects accused of inciting the brutal 2007 murders of three Christians in eastern Turkey went on trial before Malatya’s Third Criminal Court in early September.\nWith the court’s acceptance in June of a third indictment in the case, known as the “Malatya Massacre” in the Turkish media, allegations against primarily military officials have finally been made public.\n “This indictment provides the first solid evidence that our military authorities officially assigned the named suspects to monitor and attack the Christians in Malatya,” Umut Sahin from the legal committee of the Turkish Association of Protestant Churches told Open Doors News.\nThe new 761-page indictment alleges that the attack by five young murderers who stabbed, tortured and slit the throats of two Turks and a German citizen in their Malatya office had been masterminded by Hursit Tolon, a retired general in Turkey’s 1st Army Corps, and ultranationalist military officials in the Malatya gendarmerie.\nAccording to the new indictment, the Zirve murders were part of the so-called Cage Action Plan hatched by military officials trying to undermine the AKP government through assassinations, threats and acts of terror against Turkey’s non-Muslim minorities.\nJust two days before the Sept. 3 hearings began, Turkish authorities shocked the lawyers for the victims by abruptly replacing the two prosecutors, and two of the three judges, in the case, leaving only one member of the judicial panel familiar with the trial’s massive files: presiding Judge Hayrettin Kisa.\nSoldiers testified that the Malatya gendarmerie had been monitoring the handful of Christians in Malatya 24 hours a day, tapping their telephones and paying informers some 60 percent of their intelligence budget to collect data on their activities, sometimes in cooperation with police and secret intelligence officials.\nAnd after the attack, the gendarmerie officers tapped the telephones of the victims’ families, lawyers and judges in the case, and then gave false documents and testimony to manipulate the trial, trying to portray the three murdered Christians as criminals linked with illegal groups like the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), the soldiers testified.\nHearings on the case will resume on Nov. 12, when Tolon and the remaining alleged perpetrators are scheduled to testify.\n \n<h1>Perpetrators of Turkey’s ‘Malatya Massacre’ Put on Trial</h1>\n<h2>Military officials accused of masterminding attack, manipulating investigation.</h2>\n \nISTANBUL, Sept. 19 (Open Doors News) — Nineteen suspects accused of inciting the brutal 2007 murders of three Christians in eastern Turkey went on trial before Malatya’s Third Criminal Court in early September.\nWith the court’s acceptance in June of a third indictment in the case, known as the “Malatya Massacre” in the Turkish media, allegations against primarily military officials have finally been made public.\n“This indictment provides the first solid evidence that our military authorities officially assigned the named suspects to monitor and attack the Christians in Malatya,” Umut Sahin from the legal committee of the Turkish Association of Protestant Churches told Open Doors News.\nThe new 761-page indictment alleges that the attack by five young murderers who stabbed, tortured and slit the throats of two Turks and a German citizen in their Malatya office had been masterminded by a retired general in Turkey’s 1st Army Corps and ultranationalist military officials in the Malatya gendarmerie. The gendarmerie is a law-enforcement arm of the military; It has jurisdiction outside of Turkey’s cities and towns.\nRet. Gen. Hursit Tolon, who was named as the prime suspect behind the killings, at the Zirve Christian Publishing House in Malatya, failed to appear during the six consecutive days of hearings that began Sept. 3. The 70-year-old former general sent the court a 10-day medical excuse from his prison cell.\nInitially jailed in 2008 as a suspect in the alleged <a href=\"http://www.globalpost.com/passport/foreign-desk/100301/turkey%E2%80%99s-ergenekon-conspiracy-justice-or-secular-witch-hunt\" target=\"_blank\">Ergenkon conspiracy</a>, Tolon was accused of plotting to topple the ruling Justice and Peace Party (AKP) government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. After his release in 2009 due to poor health, he was re-arrested in January 2012 on “serious suspicions of a criminal act.”\nAccording to the new indictment, the Zirve murders were part of the so-called Cage Action Plan hatched by military officials trying to undermine the AKP government through assassinations, threats and acts of terror against Turkey’s non-Muslim minorities.\nIn the initial indictment, state prosecutors demanded three consecutive life sentences for the five killers, all apprehended at the scene of the crime. When the presiding judge questioned them during the September hearings, several of the murder suspects insisted that they had no motive to overthrow the government and had in fact voted for the AKP.\nDenying any acquaintance or links with Tolon and the other accused conspirators, defendant Emre Gunaydin declared, “We went on an expedition on behalf of Islam on our own to accomplish this event.”\nA judiciary scandal?\nJust two days before the Sept. 3 hearings began, Turkish authorities shocked the lawyers for the victims by abruptly replacing the two prosecutors, and two of the three judges, in the case, leaving only one member of the judicial panel familiar with the trial’s massive files: presiding Judge Hayrettin Kisa.\n“This has seriously damaged effective progress in the trial,” said Erdal Dogan, a lawyer for one of the victims. In particular, the two prosecutors who had worked on the new indictment for the past 1.5 years, examining the evidence and questioning witnesses and the accused in person, were taken off the case.\n“Changing the court prosecutors has had an unbelievably negative impact on the case,” Sahin said. “For six days, the accused suspects made incredible criticisms of the indictment, but the new prosecutor did not utter a single word for the whole six days!”\nIn response, the Council of Judges and Prosecutors stated that the Justice Ministry’s reassignment of the Malatya prosecutors and judges was a routine transfer, simply following recent legal reforms affecting the status of criminal courts.\nBut according to Orhan Kemal Cengiz, a lawyer for the victims, “This is a serious and really unacceptable scandal, concerning such a huge case. There are more than 40,000 pages in the attachments to this indictment alone!”\n“Is it possible that the AKP government is uncomfortable with the conclusion of this case?” questioned Today’s Zaman columnist Orhan Oguz Gurbuz on Sept. 16. “The government must address these doubts and questions. Otherwise, it will undermine its own legitimacy and the pluralist/democratic identity that it has relied on since the beginning.”\nSpying on Christians\nAfter the new indictment was read out in court, six of the accused soldiers testified to what had been going on behind the scenes for at least a year before Necati Aydin, Ugur Yuksel and Tilmann Geske were attacked and killed in their office on April 18, 2007. According to their testimony:\nUnder the local commander’s direction, the Malatya gendarmerie had been monitoring the handful of Christians in Malatya 24 hours a day, tapping their telephones and paying informers some 60 percent of their intelligence budget to collect data on their activities, sometimes in cooperation with police and secret intelligence officials.\nAnd after the attack, the gendarmerie officers tapped the telephones of the victims’ families, lawyers and judges in the case, and then gave false documents and testimony to manipulate the trial, trying to portray the three murdered Christians as criminals linked with illegal groups like the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), the soldiers testified.\nOn the witness stand, the soldiers told Judge Kisa that they refused to accept “any of the accusations” against themselves.\n“I was obeying orders conveyed to me within the command-chain hierarchy,” Sgt. Adem Gedik said, defending his illegal surveillance within the Malatya city limits, which fall under jurisdiction of the police force, not the gendarmerie.\nHearings on the case will resume on Nov. 12, when Tolon and the remaining alleged perpetrators are scheduled to testify.\nThe key suspects include Col. Mehmet Ulger, Malatya’s gendarmerie commander at the time; Ruhi Polat, a theology instructor at the local Inonu University; Maj. Haydar Yesil; and Ilker Cinar, an intelligence agent assigned by military officials to fake his conversion to Christianity, infiltrate the Turkish Protestants and then publicly “reconvert to Islam,” denouncing Christians as a threat to national security.\n \nEND\n \n**********\nCopyright 2012 Open Doors News\nOpen Doors News is distributed to raise awareness of Christians worldwide who are persecuted for their faith. Articles may be reprinted by active subscribers only.\nFor subscription information, contact: <a href=\"mailto:jeffth@opendoorsnews.org\" target=\"_blank\">jeffth@opendoorsnews.org</a>\n \n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:36:\"http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/\";a:1:{s:10:\"commentRss\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:120:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/2012/09/perpetrators-of-turkey%e2%80%99s-%e2%80%98malatya-massacre%e2%80%99-put-on-trial/feed/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:38:\"http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/\";a:1:{s:8:\"comments\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1:\"0\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:1;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:53:\"\n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n\n \n \n \n \n \n \";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:5:{s:0:\"\";a:7:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:39:\"Thy youth is renewed like the Eagle’s\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:80:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/2012/09/thy-youth-is-renewed-like-the-eagle%e2%80%99s/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:8:\"comments\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:89:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/2012/09/thy-youth-is-renewed-like-the-eagle%e2%80%99s/#comments\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sat, 15 Sep 2012 04:06:35 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:8:\"category\";a:5:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:40:\"Special Features (click on Article name)\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:1;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"eagle\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:2;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:7:\"Fasting\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:3;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"Psalm\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:4;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:18:\"strange scriptures\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/?p=6369\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:1:{s:0:\"\";a:1:{s:11:\"isPermaLink\";s:5:\"false\";}}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:94:\"“Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed as the eagle’s”\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"admin\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:40:\"http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/\";a:1:{s:7:\"encoded\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1257:\"<h1>Thy youth is renewed like the Eagle’s</h1>\n<a href=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/Bald_Eagle-Fearsome_Flight-1024x768.jpg\"><img class=\"alignleft size-medium wp-image-6370\" title=\"Bald_Eagle-Fearsome_Flight-1024x768\" src=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/Bald_Eagle-Fearsome_Flight-1024x768-300x225.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"300\" height=\"225\" /></a>Psalm 103:5\n“Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed as the eagle’s”\nThis fact in the life of the eagle is given as a promise to the righteous. The eagle lives to a very great age. As he grows old his beak becomes so longs that he can no longer eat; then he flies away by himself to the top of a cliff and pecks and pecks on a rock until his bill falls off, after which a new bill grows in its place. While without the use of his bill, the bird loses his feathers because of fasting. After the new bill grows and he again takes food, new feathers start growing, so that he looks and appears like a young eagle, going forth in a new covering with youthful beauty and strength. “This youth is renewed as the eagle’s”\nStrange Scriptures that Perplex the Western Mind. 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As a people they had lost heart, lost hope, and said, \"Our strength is dried, and our hope is lost, we are cut off from our parts\"—from all tribal and national union. If they looked at their present condition, they were strangers in a strange land, foreigners, without opportunity for patriotic feelings; if they looked backward, and remembered divine intervention on their beha\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"admin\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:40:\"http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/\";a:1:{s:7:\"encoded\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:19174:\" \n<h1 align=\"center\">THE VISION OF DRY BONES</h1>\n \n<a href=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/valley-of-dry-bones-cover.jpg\"><img class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-6364\" title=\"valley-of-dry-bones-cover\" src=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/valley-of-dry-bones-cover.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"100\" height=\"154\" /></a><a href=\"http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/htdb0026.htm#Ezek37:1\">EZEK. 37:1-14</a>\n \n“I will put my spirit within you.”—<a href=\"http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/htdb0026.htm#Ezek36:27\">Ezek. 36:27</a>\n \nThe passage of Scripture under consideration was addressed by the Lord through the Prophet to fleshlyIsrael, then in captivity inBabylon. The dry bones represented the Israelites themselves. As a people they had lost heart, lost hope, and said, “Our strength is dried, and our hope is lost, we are cut off from our parts”—from all tribal and national union. If they looked at their present condition, they were strangers in a strange land, foreigners, without opportunity for patriotic feelings; if they looked backward, and remembered divine intervention on their behalf, their deliverance from Egypt, their favor as a nation under David and Solomon, etc., they could think of these only as bygones, lost blessings and opportunities; if they looked forward, they could see no possible hope of their ever again becoming a nation; and as for all the great expectations which they had once entertained respecting their nation, as God’s favored people, and the heir of the promises made to Abraham, that they should rule and bless all the families of the earth— these hopes were dead, they were gone, they could have nothing of this kind in the future. The condition ofIsrael, scattered throughoutBabylonia, was indeed well illustrated by the dry bones of the vision.\nThe hand (power) of the Lord was upon Ezekiel, causing him to see this vision—he was not literally transported to any literal valley of dry bones. In the vision he was caused to pass amongst the dry bones, that he might get a full view of the situation, as they lay strewn all over the valley, very dry. Then the Lord’s explanation comes, that these dry bones are, or represent, the whole house of Israel. They did not represent merely the two tribes which went last into captivity, nor merely the ten tribes which went earlier, but the whole house of Israel, the twelve tribes. It was not until Jesus’ day that they were no longer thought of as two distinct nations, as they had considered themselves before the seventy years of desolation. To Ezekiel who was in captivity at this point in Babylon this vision gave him hope of the return of Israel, but piecing together “here a little, there a little and line upon line, and precept upon precept, we see that the main thrust of this vision was yet future from Ezekiel’s day. Zechariah chapter 9 verse 11, tells us about prisoners in a pit [valley] wherein is no water. Zechariah was a prophet at the end of the seventy years of desolation and prophesied many End Times events. Jesus tells a parable of a Rich man [nation of Israel, who had all the favor of God], who was cast into hell [sheol-hades-pit-grave], where he cried for some water because there was none Luke 16:22-24.\nSo when did this dry and desolate condition begin?\n“Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” Mat 23:38\n \nWhat is the Significance of Dry Bones?\n \nWhen God asked Ezekiel, “Can these bones live?” the prophet replied, “Thou knowest.” Ezekiel’s words show he had faith that if God wanted the bones to live, they would. He knew God had the answer. He also realized there was something behind this question, for it would take a miracle for very dry bones to live.\nThe Lord directed Ezekiel to prophesy, that is, to declare the divine message, and the divine message was a foretelling of the things which would, under divine providence, come to pass. The message to be declared was that God had the power and would exercise it, by which these who were dead, and dried as respected their national hopes, would be gradually revived, would gradually become one homogeneous people, a nation in their own land. It would not be done suddenly, but gradually, and that through attention to the divine message, which the Prophet was delivering. First the dried and hopeless ones would come together, then they would begin to unite one to the other, and gradually assume a national existence, and finally would be infused with the spirit of the Lord, as the breath or energy of national life, begotten of faith in the promises, and would stand again a nation.\nThe people’s hopes, which were thus dead, and the Lord sends the message, “Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come out of your graves and bring you into the land of Israel, and ye shall know that I am the Lord.” As a further part of this symbolic picture the Prophet is in vision shown the process by which the dry bones would be gathered, reorganized and revivified. He says there was “a noise and a shaking.” The Revised Version, apparently with propriety, renders this, “thunder and an earthquake.” Following this demonstration the bones came together.\nThe withered hopes ofIsrael, scattered throughout the provinces of Babylonia in Ezekiel’s day, cut off from their parts, from one another, from tribal union and from national cohesion, was only a foreshadowing of the more general scattering of that nation among all the nations of the civilized world (mysticBabylon) during this Gospel age. With the vast majority all hopes of the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise had died, had withered away, and had no more vitality than a dry bone. But now, in the end of this Gospel age, the due time has come for these dry bones, scattered all over mystic Babylon, to be gathered part to part, rehabilitated and revivified with hope in the promises made to the fathers. The great noise is the “seventh trumpet,” which has begun to sound; the earthquake is the coming great revolution in which mysticBabylonwill fall before the great Prince whom Cyrus in a measure prefigured. Meantime, as we look at the dry bones ofIsrael, we perceive that they already are in movement, that they are already drawing near one to another, and organizing as “Zionists,” with a view to national reorganization and a return to the land of promise. Probably the hopes of the Israelites began to revive as soon as they learned that the army of Cyrus had begun the conquest ofBabylon, and so now the hopes ofIsraelare reviving as they witness the march of events, and realize that a great day of trouble is coming upon the nations of Christendom. Their hopes will more and more go out toward Palestine and national reorganization and not disassembling the nation for the so called sake of peace with their Arab brothers, as the troubles of the day of wrath draw near.\n \nEzekiel’s Commission\n \nGod not only told Ezekiel to speak (prophesy) to the dry bones but gave him the exact words to say. Ezekiel had to address the bones with the authority of God and as if the bones could actually hear him. The prophet manifested faith and courage by speaking directly and loudly—as a trumpet. He spoke with authority: “O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Behold, I [God] will cause breath [wind, spirit, Hebrew ruach] to enter into you, and ye shall live.” Various phases of development are given in the next few verses, but God’s motive is seen here: to cause Israel to live. WhenIsrael lives, the nation will be endued with POWER.\nEzek. 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.\nThe order of development in giving “breath” to these bones is as follows: sinews, flesh, skin (epidermis), and breath (spirit). The breath, though mentioned first in verse 5, would be given last. In other words, the objective was the breath. Then verse 6 shows the stages of development, the sequence. Sinews hold the bones together; they draw the separate bones into one cohesive whole with flexibility, coordination, and locomotion. The flesh, the meat part of the body, is a symbol of material prosperity. The skin, which includes nerves, is a protection for the flesh from the air and irritants. Skin is a symbol ofIsrael’s external recognition as a nation or power, which occurred in 1948.\nEzek. 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. \nAs the process began to happen, Ezekiel first heard a noise, then a “shaking,” an earthquake—an ominous sound that showed the prophecy would be fulfilled under troublesome conditions (persecutions, pogroms, and hatred directed against the Jews that caused them to turn to Palestine/Israel). The migration toIsrael was something like the settlers who came toAmerica, an unknown land, under difficult conditions, leaving behind possessions in order to gain liberty.\nThe bones began to come together from 1878 on, contemporaneous with the Zionist movement and the preparation work preceding it, beginning with Petatikva (“Door of Hope”), established in 1878, the first Jewish colony in Palestine after almost 2,000 years. An organized, concentrated effort to return toIsrael and settle there is indicated by the bones’ forming into human skeletons.\n \nRevitalization of a Lost Nation\n \nEzek. 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. \nNext, sinews or ligaments covered the bones, followed by flesh or muscle, and then skin. Now Ezekiel saw many complete bodies, but no life, no breath.\n1. Sinews go into the flesh like the roots of a tree. At first the sinews were just laid on the bones, but later they were attached to the flesh. The sinews picture organization, recolonization, and activities such as building houses and draining swamps for farmlands.\n2. Flesh pictures temporal prosperity and increase.\n3. Skin shows statehood, recognition as a nation from man’s standpoint (from 1948 on), UN membership.\nWhen the “breath” or spirit enters, the earthly rulers of God’s government will be the Ancient Worthies (Old Testament Saints), the “princes in all the earth,” who will have their headquarters in Jerusalem (Psa. 45:16).\nThis process is analogous to Adam’s creation. He was perfectly formed step by step from the dust of the ground (given flesh, skin, etc.). The last step was when God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and Adam became a living soul. (Life begins when the breath enters the organism.) Hence, althoughIsrael was formed earlier, the nation will not live until the “breath” is imparted, a stage still future.\nWhen Israeldwells without walls in the near future, the seeming peace will be a false security, for God is the One who will give them breath in His due time.\nIn summary, then, Ezekiel saw many human bodies that had no breath, no life. What an impressive motion picture to see as the bones came together and the bodies formed!\nEzek. 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. \nEzek. 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. \nAlthough God told Ezekiel what to do, it was actually God who caused the breath to come into the bodies. He instructed Ezekiel to address the invisible wind and prophesy, “O wind, O breath, come from the four winds [the four breaths come from the north eventually], and breathe into these slain bodies, breathe into the lungs of these corpses, so that they will live.”\nAs Ezekiel complied, the human bodies not only came alive but stood up on their feet. From a prone position, they stood up and constituted an “exceeding great army” in this big, open valley. What a very strange vision! Ezekiel would have wondered what was happening. A resuscitation was being implied—literally from the grave as well as figuratively as a nation. The Holy Remnant will hear earlier, but the nation must hear after Jacob’s Trouble.\n \nGod Explains the Vision\n \nEzek. 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. \nNow God explained the vision to Ezekiel. The vision symbolically represented that in the Diaspora the people ofIsraelwould be scattered throughoutEuropeand elsewhere. Those Jews who returned toJerusalemafter the 70 years’ captivity thought this prophecy pertained to them, and the prophecy did include them, but a much greater dispersion occurred in AD 69–70. In fact, in this latter dispersion, Jews were even separated from their families and sold as slaves. (Incidentally, the Anglo-Israelite theory has some credibility in that there are evidences of Jewish names foreign to the native population. The Jewish people were so capable that some left an impression—such as their names. However, other parts of the Anglo-Israelite theory are erroneous.)\nA popular saying among the Jews was, “We are without hope, and our bones are dry.” They likened themselves to dry bones because of their experiences. What hope did a separated family have of being reunited? None. As time went on, the Jews felt their national polity was forever lost. God used such statements to show that He will miraculously restore the Jews to their former condition.\nIn these verses the Hebrew ruach could just as appropriately have been translated “wind,” “breath,” or “spirit.” In verse 9 the King James translators probably wanted to emphasize the oxygen or air, so they used “wind.” The corpses needed to be oxygenated so that they would be rejuvenated and live. Wind, breath, and spirit all pertain to air in one form or another.\nEzek. 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.\n The prophecy continued: “O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.” A “grave” can be either in the ground or on top of the ground, for the “grave” is the condition of death, and not necessarily a place. One who dies in an explosion and is blown to bits is still considered to be “in the grave.”\nEzek. 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, \nEzek. 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. \nThe word “spirit” is the Hebrew ruach again. The variations in translation help to give meaning to the vision. “Spirit” is a good word here, for “breath” makes the organism live, but “spirit” indicates a consecrated life.\nVerses 12–14 are proof that the infusion of breath is still future, as well as the opening of the graves (although the return from Diaspora has been a partial fulfillment). Israel will then know that Jehovah is the Lord—and that He has both prophesied and performed their revival as a nation.\nThere are two thoughts with regard to the opening of the graves:\n1. The Jews were in various nations throughout the Diaspora, being prisoners without hope and cut off from God. They were (and are) called from these nations to go back to Israel. But this explanation is only part of the picture. The nation cannot fully come out from the grave until after Jacob’s Trouble when the breath of life is given. Even though Jews are back in the land, they are considered sojourners until they pass under the rod and a Holy Remnant survives (Isa. 4:3). The sinew, flesh, and skin developments came after they were back in Israel for a while, and the breath will come after Jacob’s Trouble. The point is that the nation does not come from the grave like Lazarus—in a moment. Israel’s coming out of the grave is a long process. The bones do not come out from the other nations as a whole organism but piecemeal.\n2. Each bone represents one person. When collected, the bones represent people (plural), and eventually the people represent the nation.\nSome would say the breath has already entered Israel, pointing out Israel’s recognition as a nation, winning wars, etc., but Israel has not yet been recognized in the sense of this prophecy. Not until God’s spirit enters Israel will the nation live, and the entering of God’s spirit will mean consecration. After Jacob’s Trouble, the Holy Remnant will consecrate, turn to the Lord. God will pour out His spirit (“the spirit of grace and of supplications”) upon the Holy Remnant (Zech. 12:10). The process will start with repentance and a mourning for Jesus as for an only son. At that time they will know that God is God, that He has opened their graves and saved them (Ezek. 37:13,14).\n \n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:36:\"http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/\";a:1:{s:10:\"commentRss\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:63:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/2012/09/the-vision-of-dry-bones/feed/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:38:\"http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/\";a:1:{s:8:\"comments\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1:\"0\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:3;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:77:\"\n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n\n \n \n \n \n \n \";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:5:{s:0:\"\";a:7:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"The Ox that was Want to Push\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:65:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/2012/09/the-ox-that-was-want-to-push-2/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:8:\"comments\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:74:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/2012/09/the-ox-that-was-want-to-push-2/#comments\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sat, 15 Sep 2012 02:43:01 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:8:\"category\";a:13:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:40:\"Special Features (click on Article name)\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:1;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"equally yoked\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:2;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:6:\"Exodus\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:3;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:9:\"God\'s Law\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:4;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"gore\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:5;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:10:\"Gospel Age\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:6;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"kill\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:7;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"maul\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:8;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:10:\"mosaic law\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:9;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:12:\"new creature\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:10;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:12:\"old creature\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:11;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:2:\"ox\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:12;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:9:\"spiritual\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/?p=6354\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:1:{s:0:\"\";a:1:{s:11:\"isPermaLink\";s:5:\"false\";}}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:408:\"Brother Frank has given a brilliant and I believe correct interpretation of the verses in Deuteronomy and Exodus concerning the Ox and the Ass and the Ox that wants to gore.\n\nThe old mind of fleshly aspect of the Christian is likened to the Ox that intends to do harm. How it is or should be dealt with is of prime importance in this message. The responsibility of the New Mind or Creature is also addressed.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"admin\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:40:\"http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/\";a:1:{s:7:\"encoded\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:17857:\"<h1>The Ox that was Want to Push</h1>\n \nBr. Frank Shallieu 1995\n \n<a href=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/bones-kicking.jpg\"><img class=\"alignleft size-medium wp-image-6356\" title=\"bones kicking\" src=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/bones-kicking-300x187.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"300\" height=\"187\" /></a>We will be considering Exodus the 21th chapter verses 28-31, the account of the ox that gores another animal or an individual.\nExo. 21:28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit exonerated.\nWhat interests us in not just the letter of the Law, in which we see the reasonableness of this that is a man had an ox in his field and someone was gored to death by that animal. It says here, that the owner of that animal is exonerated; no guilt can be placed on him.\nWhat were they doing on his property where that can happen, and knowing what an ox is, a bull, and how erasable their nature is? They were endangering themselves if they see an animal loose and if they taunt it or are in the vicinity if that ox would kill a person trespassing his domain. The owner cannot be held liable for that circumstance.\nDeuteronomy tells us several things with regards to animals. In working with animals there is a law that prohibits the yoking to the plough of an ox and ass, because of an ox being of a full stature. The ass even though it is a powerful animal it is no match for the bull like strength of the heavier beast and when yoked together that unbalance is not doing justice to the animal. Even the stronger animal is out of kilter and the weaker would also be affected.\nDeu. 22:10 Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together.\nThe Apostle Paul in the New Testament shows us the spiritual symbology of this law. These animals represent to the Christian, himself, and what he does. We will go into this is a bit later, but Paul does say “be ye not unequally yoked.”\n2 Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?\nThis would mean, if you are unmarried and you consecrate your life to the Lord it would be very foolish to marry an unconsecrated person, as the Lord says don’t marry the unconsecrated. We do see a caveat in the scriptures, “unless you have given promise beforehand, that is, before you consecrated. But that is up to you to make that choice. When you are already married to someone who does not consecrate with you, that is also a different circumstance as well.\nSo Paul uses these animals as examples. The ox is the person who has accepted the “truth” and the other is unequal in the sense that he hasn’t the benefit of the Holy Spirit and other things which brings soundness of mind, purpose and enriches one’s life in many ways. This is an unfair thing in nature to practice and certainly spiritually speaking as well. Thus we have a lesson of the natural and the spiritual.\n1 Cor. 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?\n1Tim. 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.\nYou don’t muzzle the ox that treads the corn. As an example the Apostle Paul went throughout the mid-east establishing classes and witnessing and so forth, and others like himself, such as Barnabus who accompanied him, as well as others on different occasions. Since they have forsaken their livelihood it would not be improper for the brethren to temporally assist those who are working in the field, just as in nature you wouldn’t muzzle an ox who is doing the work for you. The ox is entitled to wages. This corn, in a way, would be their wages, not money. The laborer, whether man or beast, is worthy of his hire or compensation of some kind. So he draws from the Law spiritual lessons and applies them to us as new creatures.\nWe come to this in Exodus 21st chapter starting with the 28th verse when it says about the ox goring a human being in the sense that it dies and the owner is not responsible. But when we read on we notice certain things that the ox seems to take a prominent position in this experience; it is the aggressor. In some of the verses we see we have two oxen were one kills another ox or some tragedy follows in connection with one of them. We find that there is an owner of an ox and someone else’s animal.\nWhat do these represent? In the New Testament the Apostle Paul definitely uses the beast as a comparison with the experiences of the Christian. In this case you have a dual picture that the owner is the new creature, the ox is the old creature that he possesses, the body. The owner is the new will that has this animal nature as it were. So we find that in verse 28 the owner is exonerated, because the incident occurred in which the owner would have no responsibility due to the carelessness of others who were too close in proximity to that animal so that they were gored to death.\nNow in verse 29, it shows another account where the ox was want to push.\nExo. 21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.\nIn this instance this animal was accustomed to push or attempt to gore with his horns. Now you are in a different position. Here is an animal that by nature is aggressive and dangerous. It means that there were previous incidents. How does one know an animal was want to push with its horns unless it manifested such behavior in several occasions. It may have wounded or killed another animal, or injured a person based on their behavior.\nAt this point the owner has a responsibility, when he sees what has been done by his animal. He has to be very careful with regard to this matter. What is that responsibility? There are several options:\n1) Make a fence where the ox cannot go outside that boundary to injure anyone, but if someone comes in then the owner is not responsible as long as he has taken precautions.\n2) Stake the animal with a chain or something to give it limited range of free motion.\n3) Put it in a stall.\nIf that animal kills another after his attention has been called to the previous behavior, the ox is then put to death. This was the case in the previous verse also. The ox was to be slain and the flesh was not to be eaten. If we find that the ox which was want to push kills another, and the owner has not taken the proper precautions, that owner is also put to death. He did not directly do the murder, but is responsible for “gross negligence” and is responsible and put to death as well.\nThe antitype would be the person (the new creature/old creature) and we have to fight these desires of the flesh, some of which appear to be legitimate and some are clearly illegitimate. There is a responsibility for the New Creature in this earthen vessel. In this case when the owner is put to death, it represents the second death.\nIf his flesh is “want to push” or is a habitual problem, the Bible says thorns and thistles or a person just being cantankerous by nature, and he is consecrated and is the same troublemaker and so forth and does cause injury to others, this case happened to be the death of another. An example can be where an individual is led astray and dies. You have three deaths in this scenario. The ox which kills the person and the owner and his ox are both put to death as a result. Jesus in the scriptures says, “he that stumbles one of the least of the little ones.” That stumbling is not just an irritation or little problem of some words uttered. It is where another person either by their deeds or actions or doctrine, if the Lord holds them responsible for the death another new creature in Christ, even a little one, it would be better that a cord and stone was put around their next and thrown into the sea. There would be no hope of surfacing or being resurrected.\nMatt. 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.\nThis is indicating different degrees of responsibility. In one case the owner of the animal that did the injury is completely exonerated. This second instance because of the habit manifested, he is put to death. In the law you have different degrees of slaughter: homicide, manslaughter, murder and when people through passion may make a quick judgment and kill someone.They may kill another but may not be held fully accountable or accountable at all depending on how it is done, say under emotional stress it is to be treated a little differently. But when it is a deliberate characteristic and nothing is done about it and this type of injury occurs either naturally or spiritually,it is the responsibility of the owner of that new creature having that body (or bull). The Law is very instructional with regard to Christian habits.\nVerse 30 continues:\nExo. 21:30 If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him.\nEven though an owner is worthy of death because of this gross negligence, the ones that would do it (family members ) may want more not just his death. They may want everything he possess forfeited, not just his life. The victim’s family could exact a sum of money instead of the death penalty. In this case it is unlimited, no specifics. This may be a more desirable penalty because perhaps there may be a widow left who has no means of providing for herself. The law makes an allowance considering the victim. Today the victim isn’t given much consideration.\nSo the law says a ransom can be assigned to the owner, thus opening up another circumstance. It doesn’t say who lays the sum upon him; the victim’s family or the court or the heavenly Father. A penalty and an alternate penalty is assigned. There is another qualification, whether he hath gored son or daughter. According to this judgment, it shall be done according to him.\nExo. 21:31 Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to this judgment shall it be done unto him. \nThe judgment of the previous verse applies also to verse 31. It can be the son or daughter or servant who [is] put to death because of gross negligence on the part of the owner of the animal.\nExo. 21:32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned. \nIn all these incidents the flesh of the ox should not be eaten. Anti-typically this is not appreciated. This is where the problem is. We can mentally see the owners responsibly; we can see the oxen’s responsibility; but the eating of the ox we can’t see. That is material benefit obtained of which the Lord disapproves of the thing being done. Some don’t extrapolate properly. Spiritually speaking there is fraternizing done with regard to people who should not be fraternized with, because of certain deeds that were done. Being eaten would show that other people are getting benefit, that is, fellowship from (in this case) the old man or old woman. That tie should be severed completely. Not only is the animal put to death, but the animal nature is disapproved, disavowed, excommunicated.\nWe get now the value of a human, thirty shekels of silver, the price of a full grown man or woman. We see this identified with the death of Jesus when he was betrayed. This is an interesting thing of Ransom, payment or reimbursement.\nIn verse 33 we have another case:\nExo. 21:33 And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein;\nHere the man doesn’t cover his pit and subsequently an ox or an ass falls in. An ox and ass are used because they are of a different nature than other animals that are not as costly. That has to be taken into consideration when dealing with compensation. So this man did not take proper precautions when creating a dangerous or potentially dangerous hazard. If one makes a porch and doesn’t put a banister up and someone walks off, then the owner also is responsible because they didn’t make it safe.\nExo. 21:34 The owner of the pit shall make it good, and give money unto the owner of them; and the dead beast shall be his.\nIn this case the ox did not kill anyone, but got killed himself. The owner of the pit pays the full price of the dead beast and keeps it. Presumably the flesh can be eaten because this is not killed by another. This also pictures the old nature that is killled and not any damage to the new creature. This is a very complicated subject, but we are just broad brushing. The Law is very deep and has many valuable lessons which can profitably benefit us.\nExo. 21:35 And if one man’s ox hurt another’s, that he die; then they shall sell the live ox, and divide the money of it; and the dead ox also they shall divide.\nIn this case both are responsible and there were no witnesses to determine which animal was the agressor. In this instance also it was not known that one animal was “want to push” or not, just that two animals have a confrontation of some kind, but there is no past history of either. There has been a loss, and to be fair it is to be divided down the midde.\nSolomon got this principle and used its logic in the incident where he said to divide the child. This was done to deterimine who the real mother was.\nThe live ox cannot be divided unless you kill it, but if you leave it alive there is more value involved. You can always eat it later, but in the interim it can be working, plowing the field serving your needs until it is needed for food. So here they are to liquidate the asset—that is the live ox–and divide the price. They can also sell the dead animal for food and divide that if one can’t eat it all.\nWe see that the Law is just, there is fair play invovled. In considering a dispute or confrontation a judge has a very hard problem to learn to be a proper judge, as to how to be fair to both parties. Where one is to not be shown any mercy but only death, has to be considered too, but the circumstances have a lot to do with how it is handled.\nNow in verse 36:\nExo. 21:36 Or if it be known that the ox hath used to push in time past, and his owner hath not kept him in; he shall surely pay ox for ox; and the dead shall be his own.\nIn this case you have an ox for an ox. Both parties have an animal and one gores to death the other. The one animal was want to push with his horn, in this case there is no division of the goods, and no human life is involved. It was just an animal that was ornery and got out of control. The owner of the dead ox will get double value. He gets the sale price of both animals. He gets more than just his own animal in this instance. The owner of the ornery animal also gets something–he gets the dead animal.\nWhen you go into the next chapter you find a case of a thief. If the thief is caught in the act, he has to pay five times the value of the goods that he was taking. This shows how the Lord views thievery, that is quite a penalty. Five times! Five hundrend percent! But if the party is not caught in the act, then there is a problem, because you don’t know if he really was fully responsible. You don’t know the details, so then in the final judgment it does ameliorate the perspective because he wasn’t caught in the act. If he was, then there is no question for the judge of who is guilty. It is completely manifest. But once it gets stale the judgment becomes more difficult. So from a practical standpoint a person who is to judge this matter and to make a fair allowance, the penalty has to be paid, but it isn’t quite the same as the other.\nThe Law is like Paul says, spiritual. That is a very deep statement. In other words, even from a natural standpoint, fairplay and judgment has to be given. From a spiritual standpoint you have other characterizations that take place; so we have not considered this subject in real depth.\nIt has helped us to see that when others discredit the Law, that Law is of God. It is God’s Law and not man’s. We cannot demean or diminish the Law itself, but when it comes to the grace of forgiveness in the Gospel Age, that is another matter. We find that even in the Law there is more liberty involved with regard from a natural standpoint to the New creature and the old man, but the New creature, when that is guilty there is no other recourse than Second Death–the death of the owner of the creature that did some injury.\n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:36:\"http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/\";a:1:{s:10:\"commentRss\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:70:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/2012/09/the-ox-that-was-want-to-push-2/feed/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:38:\"http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/\";a:1:{s:8:\"comments\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1:\"0\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:4;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:65:\"\n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n\n \n \n \n \n \n \";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:5:{s:0:\"\";a:7:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:74:\"Does the Bible teach there are guardian angels? See Matthew 18:10 please.?\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:105:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/2012/09/does-the-bible-teach-there-are-guardian-angels-see-matthew-1810-please/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:8:\"comments\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:114:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/2012/09/does-the-bible-teach-there-are-guardian-angels-see-matthew-1810-please/#comments\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Thu, 13 Sep 2012 15:06:45 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:8:\"category\";a:9:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:45:\"Questions You Ask (click for the full answer)\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:1;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"Bible\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:2;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:6:\"Daniel\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:3;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:7:\"Gabriel\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:4;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:15:\"guardian angels\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:5;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:17:\"legions of angels\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:6;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"Mafia\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:7;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:7:\"Michael\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:8;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:16:\"prince of Persia\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/?p=6351\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:1:{s:0:\"\";a:1:{s:11:\"isPermaLink\";s:5:\"false\";}}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:223:\"The emphasis in this setting is to show the sensitivity of the Father and of Jesus toward these little ones—how highly they regard the consecrated and how much displeased they are with those who offend these little ones. \";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"admin\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:40:\"http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/\";a:1:{s:7:\"encoded\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4571:\"<h1><a href=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/question-mark55.jpg\"><img class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-6352\" title=\"question-mark\" src=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/question-mark55.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"75\" height=\"75\" /></a>Does the Bible teach there are guardian angels? See Matthew 18:10 please.?</h1>\n \nVerse 10 is helpful in an entirely different way too. It reveals that each consecrated Christian has more than one angel watching over and guarding him. If the guardian angel were always in heaven beholding the face of the Father, then he could not be down here superintending the providences of his assigned individual. Therefore, at least two angels (and probably more) are watching over each consecrated one. The angel in heaven, as the guardian angel, has the chief responsibility. Several angels, or “spiritual body guards,” are assigned to each individual, and one of these, the guardian angel, is appointed to be in charge and make decisions. This latter angel is responsible to the Father to make sure things are done properly.\nAnother Scripture seems to indicate that each Christian has only one angel, but the statement is based on the thinking of the other disciples at the time Peter was in prison (Acts 12:1-16). James had just been beheaded, and Peter was scheduled for beheading the next day. The disciples prayed into the wee hours of the morning. When an angel appeared unto Peter and released him, the apostle went to the house where the others were praying. Peter knocked on the door, and Rhoda answered and then ran to tell the others with great joy. When she announced, “It is Peter!” the others thought she had seen his guardian angel (singular). However, this statement was just part of the narration of a historical event and was not a doctrine being taught.\nSatan concentrates more on certain individuals than others. Consider what Jesus said about Peter, who was a natural-born leader: “Satan has desired to sift you” (Luke 22:31). Satan knew that if he could get Peter to fall, many others would fall with him because of his influence. And it may not always be that an individual is so important. Rather, the circumstance and the effect that circumstance would have on the Lord’s people could be what is important.The point is that there is always a sufficient number of angels available to assist an individual in a given situation, even if that assistance requires activity in several areas.\nThe emphasis in this setting is to show the sensitivity of the Father and of Jesus toward these little ones—how highly they regard the consecrated and how much displeased they are with those who offend these little ones. Jesus could have had 12 legions of angels assist him if he had so prayed (Matt. 26:53). Since a “legion” consisted of somewhere between 3,000 and 6,000 men, Jesus could have had at least (12 x 3,000) 36,000 angels. Why 12 legions? Perhaps it was to show that all of the spiritual “tribes” would subsequently have angels to guard them.\nExtra help was needed to answer Daniel’s prayer (Dan. 10:13). Gabriel was withstood by the “prince of Persia” (Satan) for 21 days until Michael came to help him. This incident shows that adversarial spirit powers are in tartaroo (around earth’s atmosphere). Even though limited to a certain condition or place (a “prison”), the fallen angels exercise great malevolent powers. It is like a Mafia member in prison who continues to manage with authority an illegal operation on the outside.\nTo us, 21 days (three weeks) is a long period of time, and Daniel fasted for three weeks just to get an understanding of a prophecy. For Gabriel to not come to Daniel for 21 days seems like an inordinate amount of time from our standpoint, but this incident reveals that angelic time is different from ours. Time is relative, so a long time to us is a short time to angels. A thousand years are as a day in God’s sight, and yet, if He so desires, a day can be a thousand years; that is, God can do many things in a short period of time, and He also does things over a long concept of time from our standpoint. Thus 21 days could be like 21 minutes to the angels. When the angels watch an individual from birth to maturity and old age and death, it may be like watching a flower that perishes overnight, whereas to us, it is 80 years.\n \nSee our verse by verse study on<a href=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/2009/12/matthew-chapter-18-trespasses/\"> Matthew 18</a>\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:36:\"http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/\";a:1:{s:10:\"commentRss\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:110:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/2012/09/does-the-bible-teach-there-are-guardian-angels-see-matthew-1810-please/feed/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:38:\"http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/\";a:1:{s:8:\"comments\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1:\"1\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:5;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:77:\"\n \n \n \n \n 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of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”\nThis seems scarcely to require comment. It shows the holiness, as well as blessedness of all that reigning company. Another thought is suggested, by the fact that these shall be priests to teach, as well as kings to reign. They will not only see to the execution of God’s laws, but will give instruction and assistance to mankind, such as will enable them to render obedience. Yes, it is a blessed thought, that we will be both kings and priests, (<a href=\"http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/htdb0066.htm#Rev5:10\">Rev. 5:10</a>) and reign with him the thousand years.\nDuring this reign of the Christ, all will have been brought to a knowledge of the truth, (<a href=\"http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/htdb0054.htm#1Tim2:4\">1 Tim. 2:4</a>) the true light will have enlightened every man, ever born into the world. (<a href=\"http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/htdb0043.htm#John1:9\">Jno. 1:9</a>) All will have been brought to a recognition of Christ; those in heaven, (angels) those on earth (living men) and those under the earth, (those now in their graves who must yet be brought to life). All will have been brought to recognize the power of Jehovah’s anointed; and unto him every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess. (<a href=\"http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/htdb0050.htm#Phil2:10\">Phil. 2:10,11</a>) And all nations that God ever made (Sodomites and all) shall come and worship before him. (<a href=\"http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/htdb0066.htm#Rev15:4\">Rev. 15:4</a>) All people shall be blessed by having an opportunity to reach human perfection, and consequent perfect happiness, and life ever-lasting. This kingdom over earth, after subduing all evil, will cease by being delivered up to God, even the Father, as Paul tells us: “He must reign till he hath put all enemies under his feet: [in subjection] The last enemy that shall be destroyed, is death.” [The destruction of death implies the raising of mankind out of it, to perfection of humanity: abolishing death and all of its incipient stages of sickness, pain, etc. This will be a gradual process, requiring all of \"the times (1,000 years) of restitution\" for its complete accomplishment.]\nIt should be remembered, that to humanity the Millennial Age is not the perfect, but the perfecting age, to be followed by that which is perfect; even as to the Bride of Christ, the Gospel Age is not the perfect, but the perfecting period, to be followed by ages of glory and perfection, of which the Millennial is the first.\nAnd when all things shall be put under him, then shall the Son, also, himself be subject unto him (God the Father) that put all things under him [that gave him the power]; that God may be all in all.” (<a href=\"http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/htdb0046.htm#1Cor15:25\">1 Cor. 15:25,28</a>)\nBut since all things before presentation to Jehovah must be perfect, whatever their nature; and since no sin is to go beyond the Millennial Age; therefore, it would seem but proper, that those who had experienced the blessings of knowledge and restitution, should be proved or tested, before they should be considered sin-proof. Having then reached, perfection of being and having had a previous knowledge of sin and its results, perfect obedience should be expected. Therefore Satan –evil–will be loosed a little season, in order that it may be manifested, whether their obedience results from a fear of the punishment of evil doing, or from a heart love of God, and a desire to do those things well pleasing to him.\nAs evil will be bound by the infliction of punishment on the evil doer, so we may presume, it will be loosed by allowing evil deeds for a time to go unpunished; much as it is during this age. (See <a href=\"http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/htdb0039.htm#Mal3:15\">Mal. 3:15-18</a>) With full liberty to do good or evil, the actions of each individual, will show his true disposition. Some will remain faithful, called holy ones (saints) others from among all nations, will join the insurrection of evil; and the two classes will thus be manifested. 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The state lawyers insisted workers are not entitled to wear a crucifix at work against the wishes of their employers – and if that is incompatible with their faith they ‘are free to resign’. The Christians’ counsel said it was wrong they should have fewer rights than other faith groups just because they had a ‘tolerant’ religion.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"admin\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:40:\"http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/\";a:1:{s:7:\"encoded\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:7032:\"<h1>Christians ‘must choose between job or their faith’: Government lawyers claim at European court</h1>\n<ul>\n<li>Claims that four Christians were refused the right to express beliefs at work to be rejected</li>\n<li>Those who disobey employers should ‘go and find another job’</li>\n<li>Hard line means that Government doesn’t support right to wear a cross at work</li>\n</ul>\nBy <a href=\"http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=&authornamef=Steve+Doughty+In+Strasbourg\" rel=\"nofollow\">STEVE DOUGHTY IN STRASBOURG</a>\nPUBLISHED: 11:39 EST, 4 September 2012 | UPDATED: 02:33 EST, 5 September 2012\n<div id=\"attachment_6344\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"width: 175px\"><a href=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/david-cameron.jpg\"><img class=\"size-medium wp-image-6344\" title=\"Prime Minister David Cameron told the House of Commons earlier this year that the right to wear the cross at work was \'an absolutely vital freedom\' Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198201/Christians-choose-job-faith-Government-lawyers-claim-European-court.html#ixzz26BHhrIXU\" src=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/david-cameron-165x300.jpg\" alt=\"Prime Minister David Cameron told the House of Commons earlier this year that the right to wear the cross at work was \'an absolutely vital freedom\' Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198201/Christians-choose-job-faith-Government-lawyers-claim-European-court.html#ixzz26BHhrIXU\" width=\"165\" height=\"300\" /></a>Prime Minister David Cameron told the House of Commons earlier this year that the right to wear the cross at work was 'an absolutely vital freedom'</div>\nChristians may have to sacrifice their jobs if they want to express their religion at work, government lawyers declared yesterday.\nThey urged human rights judges in Strasbourg to reject a landmark case brought by four Christians who said they suffered faith-based discrimination.\nThe state lawyers insisted workers are not entitled to wear a crucifix at work against the wishes of their employers – and if that is incompatible with their faith they ‘are free to resign’.\nThe hard line contrasts starkly with David Cameron telling the Commons in July that the right to wear the cross at work was ‘an absolutely vital freedom’.\nHe even pledged to change the law to ‘make clear that people can wear religious symbols at work.’\nLast night the Government’s handling of the case was attacked by Christians for its ‘astonishing double standards’.\nGovernment lawyers said the wearing of the crucifix was not a ‘scriptural requirement’ of Christianity, so employers had no obligation to recognise it.\nBut in a confrontation at the court yesterday, the Christians’ counsel said it was wrong they should have fewer rights than other faith groups just because they had a ‘tolerant’ religion.\nThe hearing at the European Court of Human Rights involved four test cases, two of which involve employees prevented from wearing a cross at work. Nadia Eweida’s row with British Airways led the airline to back down in 2006 and Shirley Chaplin who – after 30 years as a nurse – was told she could no longer wear her cross on duty for health and safety reasons.\n<div> The other two cases are those of Lilian Ladele, who was sacked as a registrar by Islington council because she declined to conduct civil partnerships and Gary McFarlane, a Relate counsellor who lost his job in Bristol after admitting to bosses that he felt unable to give sex therapy to gays.The case comes at a time when senior Christian leaders, including the archbishops of the Church of England and the Pope, have complained that Christianity is being pushed out of public life in Britain.\nPaul Diamond, for Mrs Chaplin and Mr McFarlane, said: ‘These are real people, real lives, real damage suffered. There is no knowing where this will end as society moves in a secular direction. The situation in the UK is now critical.’\nBut James Eadie QC, acting for the Government, told the judges that none of the four Christians had suffered any form of discrimination.\n‘There is a difference between the professional sphere where your religious beliefs conflict with other interests and the private sphere,’ he said.\n‘Everyone has the right to express their beliefs, including the right to display religious symbols, but not an absolute right or a right without limits. That does not mean that in their professional sphere anyone can manifest their religious belief in any way they choose.’ He said that under European human rights rules, people were allowed to practise their religion in a ‘generally recognised form’. \n\nHowever, they could not ask to express their religion in ways which were not a ‘scriptural requirement’. \n\n<div> He said: ‘Employees are free to resign if they find their employment incompatible with their religious beliefs’, adding: ‘They can obtain alternative employment in which they can reflect their religion as they wish.’In the case of Miss Eweida, 61, from Twickenham, south-west London, wearing a cross was ‘a personal expression of faith and not a response to a scriptural command’. \nMrs Chaplin, 57, he added, had been told not to wear her cross because of new health and safety rules at Royal Devon and Exeter Hospital.\nOf registrar Miss Ladele, Mr Eadie said Islington believed same-sex couples should have equal access to services and ‘this is a legitimate, even a weighty, aim for a public authority’. \n\nFor Miss Eweida, James Dingemans said that BA allowed Muslims to wear hijabs, Sikhs to wear turbans and bracelets, and Jews to wear skull caps. \n\nLast night Andrea Minichiello Williams of the Christian Legal Centre said: ‘The Government’s double standards in their handling of these four cases has been astonishing.\n‘The PM says one thing to the media and in Parliament and yet shuns such statements at the most critical time, in legal submissions to the European Court of Human Rights.’ \n\nThe court is likely to take several months before making a ruling.\nRead more: <a href=\"http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198201/Christians-choose-job-faith-Government-lawyers-claim-European-court.html#ixzz26BFaHOgY\">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198201/Christians-choose-job-faith-Government-lawyers-claim-European-court.html#ixzz26BFaHOgY</a>\n</div>\n</div>\n \n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:36:\"http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/\";a:1:{s:10:\"commentRss\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:89:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/2012/09/christians-must-choose-between-job-or-their-faith/feed/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:38:\"http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/\";a:1:{s:8:\"comments\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1:\"0\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:7;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:53:\"\n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n\n 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NASB\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:133:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/2012/09/172-%e2%80%9csurely-our-grief-he-himself-bore-and-our-sorrows-he-carried-%e2%80%9d-isaiah-534-nasb/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:8:\"comments\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:142:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/2012/09/172-%e2%80%9csurely-our-grief-he-himself-bore-and-our-sorrows-he-carried-%e2%80%9d-isaiah-534-nasb/#comments\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:15:54 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:8:\"category\";a:5:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:34:\"The Basics (click on Article name)\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:1;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:24:\"bondage to sin and death\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:2;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:15:\"demon-possessed\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:3;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:24:\"sheep without a shepherd\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}i:4;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:10:\"synagogues\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/?p=6340\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:1:{s:0:\"\";a:1:{s:11:\"isPermaLink\";s:5:\"false\";}}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:112:\"Each miracle of healing was motivated by Jesus heart- felt connection to the experience of the one who suffered.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"admin\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:40:\"http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/\";a:1:{s:7:\"encoded\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5069:\"Good morning!\nThe compassion of Christ always led to action, to stand for the highest good and healing in God’s time and way for each individual. When we are faced with misunderstanding or hostility this compassion and this stand can bring peace to our hearts.\nMuch love in Christ,\n \nJoy\n \n<h1 align=\"center\">#172 “Surely our grief he himself bore, and our sorrows he carried.” Isaiah 53:4 NASB</h1>\n\n<a href=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/healer.gif\"><img class=\"alignleft size-medium wp-image-6341\" title=\"healer\" src=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/healer-293x300.gif\" alt=\"\" width=\"293\" height=\"300\" /></a>“And the LORD said, ‘I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt, and I have given heed to their cry because of their taskmasters, for I am aware of their sufferings.’ “ “I know their sorrows.” Exodus 3:7 (The word for sorrows in Isaiah and Exodus verses is the same, #4341.)\nJesus bore or lifted (#5375) the grief (#2483 malady, anxiety, calamity) and sorrows of the bondage to sin and death. The result of bearing grief and carrying sorrow in his human ministry was through the exercise of healing power.\n“And when evening had come, they brought to him many who were demon-possessed; and he cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill in order that what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, ‘He himself took our infirmities, and carried away our diseases.’ “ Matthew 8:16-17\nThere is an important relationship between compassion and healing. \n(Compassion: 4697 Splaghehnizomai: to be moved with compassion, to yearn with compassion Compassion in the Latin: to suffer with; concern for the suffering of another)\nEach miracle of healing was motivated by Jesus heart- felt connection to the experience of the one who suffered.\n“And Jesus was going about all the cities and the villages, teaching in their synagogues, and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.\nAnd seeing the multitudes, he felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and downcast like sheep without a shepherd….” Matt 9:35-6 \n“And when he went ashore, he saw a great multitude, and felt compassion for them, and healed their sick.” Matthew 14:14\n“They said to him, ‘Lord, we want our eyes to be opened.’ And moved with compassion, Jesus touched their eyes; and immediately they regained their sight and followed him.” Matthew 20:33-34\n“And a leper came to him, beseeching him and falling on his knees before him, and saying to him, ‘If you are willing, you can make me clean.’ And moved with compassion, he stretched out his hand, and touched him, and said to him, ‘I am willing; be cleansed.’ ” Mark 1:40-41\nLuke 7:1312-14 “Now as he approached the gate of the city, behold a dead man was being carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow; and a sizeable crowd from the city was with her. And when the Lord saw her, he felt compassion for her, and said to her, ‘Do not weep.’ And he came up and touched the coffin; and the bearers came to a halt. And he said, ‘Young Man, I say to you, arise!” And the dead man sat up, and began to speak. And Jesus gave him back to his mother.” Verse 15\nJesus saw the need, he felt the need in the depths of his heart, and he responded to the need. He lifted the effects of sin and death by healing. This foreshadowed the permanent lifting and eradication of sin and death in both the heavenly and earthly kingdoms. To become the sin-bearer, he lifted the sin by bearing its weight upon himself. He felt the burden of the sin and the guilt that he was lifting. Each miracle of healing was motivated by Jesus heart- felt connection to the experience of the one who suffered.\n“To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps…”\n1 Peter 2:21 Instead of retaliation, we will keep entrusting ourselves to the one who judges justly,(1 Peter 2:23) and exercise compassion. (Jesus compassion led him to the cross. 2 Peter 2:24) As we consider him, we are inspired and strengthened to have compassion on the one who may insult or misunderstand us, opening our hearts to be touched by the world of the person who is suffering.\nHe empowers to understand the impact of their circumstance, and to stand for the lifting of that burden.\nWhat a privilege to stand in partnership with him, for the healing and highest blessing of others regardless of the cost.\n \n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:36:\"http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/\";a:1:{s:10:\"commentRss\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:138:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/2012/09/172-%e2%80%9csurely-our-grief-he-himself-bore-and-our-sorrows-he-carried-%e2%80%9d-isaiah-534-nasb/feed/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:38:\"http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/\";a:1:{s:8:\"comments\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1:\"0\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:8;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:83:\"\n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n \n\n \n \n \n \n \n \";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:5:{s:0:\"\";a:7:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:48:\"#171 By 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life.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"admin\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:40:\"http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/\";a:1:{s:7:\"encoded\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5389:\"<a href=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/Jesus_or_barabbas2.57174557_std.jpg\"><img class=\"alignleft size-medium wp-image-6337\" title=\"Jesus_or_barabbas2.57174557_std\" src=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/Jesus_or_barabbas2.57174557_std-300x187.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"300\" height=\"187\" /></a>Good Morning!\nWe are experiencing the release of ‘Barabbas’ through Jesus willingness to bear his sentence of death and the restoration of our relationship with the Shepherd and Guardian of our life.\nThanks be to God for his unspeakable gift!\nWith prayers that the Lord will continue to bless our Memorial meditations and preparation of heart,\n \nJoy\n \n<h1 align=\"center\">#171 By His Stripes We Are Healed 1 Peter 1:24</h1>\n“And he himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by his wounds you were healed.” 1 Peter 2:24 (Wounds is Strong’s #3468: melops: from 3433 blow-mark; weal) {or welt} \n“But he was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon him, and by his scourging we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5\n \nPerhaps the wounds or blow marks referred to in 1 Peter 2:24 are connected with the stripes Jesus received when he was scourged. “Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.” John 19:1; Matthew 26:26; Mark 15:15\n“And wishing to satisfy the multitude, Pilate released Barabbas for them, and after having Jesus scourged, Pilate delivered him to be crucified.” Mark 15:15 Jesus willingly surrendered to being scourged, Barabbas was released, and Jesus was then crucified.\n Who was Barabbas?\nHe was the Son of Abba , (Strong’s# 912), ‘ son of father.’ He was a notable prisoner. Matthew 27:16 He was a rebel, who stirred up sedition with other fellow insurgents. He was guilty of murder. Mark 15:7 He was a robber, “one who plunders openly and by violence.” Vines; John 18:40\n \nThe Correspondence\nThis man Barabbas seems a fitting picture of Adam and the race of Adam.\n*Just as Barabbas was ‘son of father,’ Adam was a Son of God. Luke 3:38\n*Barabbas was already sentenced and serving time in prison: Adam and the race in his loins are under the sentence of death, and are in the prison house of death. Romans 5:12\n*Barabbas was the one who deserved chastisement. Adam and his family were condemned to death, guilty of rebellion or disobedience. Romans 5:15\n*Jesus sacrifice resulted in Barabbas release. Barabbas was released from being crucified, and then from being thrown into the Gehennah dump, where criminals bodies were disposed of. Jesus saved the whole race of mankind from permanently dying with no hope of life again. Romans 5:18\nAdam is represented by Barabbas. We are also, in a sense, Barabbas. Jesus was scourged, and then crucified and we are released.\nPerhaps the fact that Jesus was scourged, and Barabbas was released, is part of the meaning of Isaiah 53:5 We are healed by his stripes: we are healed because he was willing to experience the public humiliation and anguish of being treated like a criminal when he was truly innocent. He was willing to take Barabbas place, he was willing to secure Barabbas release, and he was willing to bear the weight of the full the sentence of death. “…the chastening for our well-being fell upon him, and by his scourging we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5\nOur healing\n“For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.” 1 Peter 2:25\nWhen Adam sinned, his Shepherding relationship under God was lost. God gave the Adam and the world over to the fruit of their choices. Romans 1:20-27 We are born into Adam’s world of sin, vulnerability and wandering. “All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way…” Isaiah 53:6\nBut our relationship to God through Christ has been healed. We have returned to the one who knows how to protect and nurture our life. At great cost of suffering Jesus has created the opportunity to return to the Shepherding relationship with the Father, the Great Shepherd. This opportunity is offered now to those who are called and who choose to wholeheartedly follow Christ. A second opportunity to accept Christ and to be under his Shepherding care will take place in the Kingdom for Israel and all the nations of the earth. 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Dawkins\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:33:\"http://www.finaltrump.com/?p=6332\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:1:{s:0:\"\";a:1:{s:11:\"isPermaLink\";s:5:\"false\";}}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:96:\"I think many people are atheists, not because of God, but because of how man has portrayed God. \";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"admin\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:40:\"http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/\";a:1:{s:7:\"encoded\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:3047:\" \n<h1><a href=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/question-mark54.jpg\"><img class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-6333\" title=\"question-mark\" src=\"http://www.finaltrump.com/wp-content/uploads/question-mark54.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"75\" height=\"75\" /></a>“The fool has said in his heart, there is no God” What does this Bible quote mean for people like Mr R Dawkins?</h1>\n \n \nAnswer:\nI just saw a recent interview with Richard Dawkins and some priests or something.\nDawkins said he wasn’t an atheist.\nThe priest said he was known as the World’s Greatest Atheist and Dawkins said not by him.\nHe is an agnostic and very close to an atheist according to this interview, but hasn’t closed the door.\nI think many people are atheists, not because of God, but because of how man has portrayed God. Most of Christianity is just a sham and full of hypocrites, so when honest people think what these people do and teach are what the Bible says, even if they have read it themselves, they have those preconceived doctrines in their heads—no wonder they don’t want to worship the god that Christendom has invented.\nI thank God, the real God that He won’t write these people off because of all the hypocrites out there who teach doctrines of demons instead of the Truth. Christendom will certainly pay for stumbling the masses. “Babylon is fallen is fallen and has become the habitation of every unclean thing.” That scripture is directly talking about Christendom, the Catholic Church more specifically, but since most of Christendom is her daughters they come under that umbrella because they have the same spirit.\nWhen Christians pray for the Kingdom, what do they think they are praying for?\nGod’s will to be done on the earth as it is done in heaven.\nFor the resurrection of all of mankind\nFor Isaiah 35 when the highway of holiness is opened all the redeemed (all mankind–who are not faithful Christians in heaven) will get the opportunity to walk on it and it says “though the fool shall not err”, that is the simple minded will be able to figure it out. 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